tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post233459060237060426..comments2023-11-09T02:43:59.293-08:00Comments on Christian Medical Comment: Should ‘gay’ Christians be true to their feelings?Peter Saundershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-5782806889382869942013-01-17T16:09:54.614-08:002013-01-17T16:09:54.614-08:00Dear Peter
You wrote:
"The Bible is very cl...Dear Peter<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"The Bible is very clear that all sexual relations outside marriage (a life-long exclusive monogamous heterosexual public covenant relationship) are morally wrong (Leviticus 18:6-23, 20:10-21; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9,10; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 1 Timothy 1:9,10; Revelation 22:15)."<br /><br />Well, I read all the bible passages, and could not find any clear statement that "all sexual relations outside marriage (a life-long exclusive monogamous heterosexual public covenant relationship) are morally wrong."<br /><br />What many Christian people have been saying is that the only people allowed to engage in any sexual love-making whatsoever, and only then with one another, are pairs of people who have satisfied the requirements of statute law that would have enabled them to claim the married tax allowance, before it was abolished.<br /><br />Since two people have to be of the opposite sex to be married in the eyes of the British government, there is nothing discriminatory about being against "gay" sex in practice, but not, it is claimed, on principle. It is simply a particular outworking of the general rule against sex outside marriage. Gays cannot marry one another (yet!), and THAT is the only reason they cannot have sex.<br /><br />The B&B owners Mr & Mrs Bull argued exactly this way, that they weren't discriminating against the two men in a civil partnership. Oh no! They consistently apply the same rule to opposite sex couples who aren't married in the eyes of the government either.<br /><br />Redefining marriage to demolish THAT ill thought-out position is going to make Christians think harder, and read their bibles more carefully, that's for sure.<br /><br />Love in Christ,<br /><br />JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-72379919443048701842012-01-28T23:55:56.230-08:002012-01-28T23:55:56.230-08:00nice article dude, seems many of us know what bibl...nice article dude, seems many of us know what bible says about it, the time has passed and more now people can't accept what people pretend about gay people should be, noone knows exactly what homosexual is, only GOD, what people psychologists have found are just theories, only theories, but if we really believe in GOD we should know we can really wanna do anything in JESUS name, more of what people say about GOD, let me tell you one thing buddies:<br />men can really make changes, exist 2 kind of men,those who want to and those who can.<br />THE CHANGES ARE IMPORTANT IN OUR LIVES, ARE THE CONSECUENCE OF WHO WE ARE, AND WHO ARE WE GONNA BE.<br />greetings and GOD bless you alloneless not onemorehttp://www.onelessnotonemore.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-2637916817398078662011-12-16T09:22:49.012-08:002011-12-16T09:22:49.012-08:00Hi Peter
“Marriage is a great calling but so is s...Hi Peter<br /><br />“Marriage is a great calling but so is singleness, and sex is neither compulsory, nor necessary, in order to live a fulfilled and fruitful life.<br /><br />Sex is a wonderful gift but like any gift it is not granted to all”. <br /><br />This is very true, and thank you for reminding us of this. I was also reading your post on “The Blessings of Marriage” which create some tension with what you say here. I say tension, not contradiction. <br /><br />“Marriage is a virtually universal human institution because it was originally God's idea. It was God who first said that it was not good for man to be alone and who created the unique complementarity of the marriage relationship for companionship, pleasure, procreation and the raising of children – one man, one woman, united for life”<br /><br />“Marriage leads to better family relationships, less economic dependence, better physical health and longevity, improved mental health and emotional well-being and reduced crime and domestic violence”. <br /><br />So does this mean that those who are not granted marriage are doomed to a lack of companionship and poor health? I do appreciate that your comments are intended to encourage married people and to foster a positive approach to marriage which is good, but these comments have effectively alienated people – like those above – who are single through no choice of their own (along with widows, divorcees and people with mental or physical disabilities). Telling them that they are doomed to misery is not really what they need to hear.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05639874602120907683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-67932831720461429702011-12-07T14:26:17.606-08:002011-12-07T14:26:17.606-08:00Hi Origen,
Just to clear up a misunderstanding -...Hi Origen, <br />Just to clear up a misunderstanding - materialism in this sense doesn't mean materialistic: the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter. Most scientists dealing with origins will assume that there is nothing in the universe except the physical processes we can measure, or at least will present their work in this way even if they hold different views in their private lives. You want to listen to these scientists when they reject the Bible, but then ignore the same scientists by believing there is a God. In practice, both issues are dominated by philosophical assumptions and not by the scientific facts.<br /><br />The organisation behind creation.com "accepts the authority of Scripture as an axiom or presupposition: i.e. as a starting point or assumption that requires no proof, and is the basis for all reasoning. All philosophical systems start with axioms. So it’s not a question of a religious system starting from prior assumptions vs. a ‘scientific’ system without any prior assumptions, but which axioms are self-consistent and provide a consistent framework in which to fit the evidence." But this isn't blind faith, because the Bible stands up incredibly well to an examination of it's claims.<br /><br />Yes, it would take some effort to work through an article like http://creation.com/the-authority-of-scripture (which the above quote comes from). But it would help you to consider the claim that it's fully logical to believe the Bible is true, and that's such an important subject that it's worth some study.Mark Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-21390957562348601712011-12-06T06:00:05.870-08:002011-12-06T06:00:05.870-08:00Why would you think that the Bible is true if you ...Why would you think that the Bible is true if you don't want to repent of your sins? As an ummarried man I want to have sex before I am married. However I read that this is wrong. God has convicted me that it is wrong. If we do not accept the truth of God's word then we are in denial. We are "slaves to sin" as Paul puts it in Romans. He also states we should be "slaves to righteousness". Part of being a slave is doing things you don't want to. However, if you let the Lord be your master He will do what's best for you and in fact help you. Just because you want something to be a certain way doesn’t mean it is.<br /><br />If God is all powerful then surely He can defend His own book. If we are to be followers of Christ shouldn’t we be able to find the truth in a document that is supposed to be our source of knowledge? Or are you saying we should throw out that tatty piece of fiction and try it on instinct? I do not believe we would get very far. In fact, I know we wouldn’t.<br /><br />You seem to want to aggravate someone into commenting on evolution. Well, I will say this: Genesis was written a long time ago. It was not written as a scientific document. It does not talk about neutrons and protons, quarks and electrons. It says nothing about the sun being a burning gas fire full of hydrogen and helium or that other stars went supernova spitting heavy elements everywhere forming interstellar dust which could form a planet such as our own. It does not mention dinosaurs, the enormous meteor that wiped them out or an ice age. In fact, it’s not very comprehensive from a scientific viewpoint. But then again, Genesis does not try to be from a scientific viewpoint. Genesis sets out to tell us what we need to know. God created everything. He created life. And not only that, but His Son and the Spirit were there. God’s word is powerful. He created us in His image. We then turned from Him, i.e. sinned. The Bible as a whole explains this very well. We sin and that separates us from God, therefore He sent His one and only Son to save us and bring us back to Him should we choose.<br /><br />It always makes me sad when people take Bible passages out of context. When Jesus is confronting the young rich ruler it is to point out his deep sin. The young man idolises his wealth. He puts money before God. That is a sin. Pure and simple. Selling everything he has is not the full answer. He has to turn to God. The Jews also were to follow God. They were to foresee the great act of sacrifice of Jesus and His subsequent resurrection and know that it would cover all of time.Chris Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-219996088328034572011-12-05T16:00:15.891-08:002011-12-05T16:00:15.891-08:00Well you can thank Anglican Mainstream for pointin...Well you can thank Anglican Mainstream for pointing me to this blog again!<br /><br />I don't think that "the meaning in the Bible is unmistakable."<br /><br />Lets consider what Jesus says to the rich young ruler:“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.” Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”<br /><br />Nowhere does he say "Trust in my vicarious death upon the cross and you will be saved!"<br /><br />And what about the jews? Weren't they saved without Jesus dying for them??<br /><br />I'm not sure where this high view of the bible comes from? All I can see is that a lot of people believe it to be the Word of God therefore it is. I think God still speaks today. Why would he stop 2000 years ago??<br /><br />I work in IT and I have a hard enough job doing that without trying to spend precious brain cells trying to understand evolution-deniers. I guess that I'm trying to say that I'd rather trust the majority of scientists in the world rather than a few who have a religious axe to grind. I'm also not sure of your claim that the majority of scientists support materialism, I wouldn't have thought that would be a defining principle of science.Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-12190746140240396392011-12-05T14:58:41.387-08:002011-12-05T14:58:41.387-08:00Origen,
I don't know if you will check this th...Origen,<br />I don't know if you will check this thread again, but here's hoping you will. <br /><br />You are right that a key issue is how we view the Bible. A Christian's faith is built on God's message to us in the Bible, and when we don't like what the Bible clearly teaches, our response should be to ask God's help to align ourselves with Him. I fear you've edited so many things that you don't agree with out of the Bible, that you haven't even retained the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. Whatever you call it in theological terms, the meaning in the Bible is unmistakable...<br /><br />Consider these words from Hebrews 9: "He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many."<br />Or these from 1 Peter 3: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God."<br />Or these from Romans : "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."<br />Or words of Jesus: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." and "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." and "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."<br /><br />If you justify your rejection of large parts of the Bible on the grounds that it isn't reliable in Genesis, then that's where creation.com can help. The majority of scientists have made a philosophical commitment to materialism and you would already have to disagree with them if you seek to worship Jesus as Lord. I agree it makes sense to trust scientists on their expert opinion when they deal with experimental science which we use for technology, but when we discuss origins, the scientist's starting assumptions are not neutral. The majority of scientists will 'shoehorn' the evidence into an evolutionary framework simply because they will permit no other alternative. Why don't you ignore the articles marked 'technical' and dig a bit deeper in creation.com: there's plenty of stuff which only needs plain logic. If it can help you see that all of the Bible is to be trusted, it would be well worth the effort.Mark Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-21087062061059063852011-11-28T03:41:24.459-08:002011-11-28T03:41:24.459-08:00Origen,
I first had homosexual thoughts towards y...Origen,<br /><br />I first had homosexual thoughts towards young adults at the age of three (not children my own age). I remember being completely overpowered by them all (and still am) to the same extent and intensity. Of course many decades ago, society or the church did not help in any way (especially young children) but God did and still does. <br /><br />The anger you mention is not towards myself but towards the suffering. The suffering of small children and older adults. But even if the whole world was homosexual and the church accepted it, I would still be suffering. How can I call good something that makes me suffer so much? How can God call good something that makes me suffer so much?<br /><br />I do not understand why all this happens. But God suffers with me. He cares. He loves me and you and Peter. The suffering changes us. It can transform us into people who can also suffer for others out of love. And the love for God and others helps us to give up our demands for an easy life. Like Jesus! But it is worth it. It is always worth it! It is not a dark life but one that is full of hope with God.<br /><br /><br />CalumCalum MacKellarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-86067641888128041432011-11-25T23:21:25.509-08:002011-11-25T23:21:25.509-08:00Origen, holidayAs a doctor who has written regular...Origen, <a href="http://www.sport4xbet.com" rel="nofollow">holiday</a>As a doctor who has written regularly about the science of these issues may I ask what fresh scientific understanding we have now that has changed everything and caused us to move on? I'd be very interested to know <a href="http://www.starsoccer88.com" rel="nofollow">บาคาร่า</a><br />.sbohttp://www.sboasia99.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-81014364234519549972011-11-25T08:49:17.232-08:002011-11-25T08:49:17.232-08:00Origen,
As I have pointed out in this blog there ...Origen,<br /><br />As I have pointed out in this blog there is a clear difference between, on the one hand, having a homosexual orientation or identity (as a significant number of Christians do) and, on the other hand, participating in same-sex sexual relations. These are off-limits for Christians. <br /><br />Not being able to have sex does not however exclude the possibility of strong committed (non-erotic) loving relationships.<br /><br />In this regard Christians who recognise themselves as having a homosexual identity or orientation face similar struggles to many Christians with a heterosexual orientation who are unable to have sex because they are single, divorced, separated, bereaved or in a marriage where for whatever reason sex is not possible. <br /><br />The struggles and temptations can be immense, as Calum has so eloquently and honestly described, but part of walking in the path of the cross means that we cannot do some things we might desperately desire to do. <br /><br />But to all in that situation for whatever reason (ie. facing sexual or any other temptation) God promises that his grace will be sufficient. And I take him at his word on that.<br /><br />If you are in fact engaged in same-sex sexual relations then you need to repent (stop doing it) and seek God's forgiveness and grace to change. Same-sex sexual relations are morally wrong. Being an integrated Christian means bringing one's behaviour into line with God's will; it does not mean bringing one's behaviour into line with one's feelings. <br /><br />If you wish to birch me for saying that then that is up to you.<br /><br />I would say the same thing to you regardless of what sin we were discussing. If I did not, but rather chose to affirm a sinful life-style choice, I would be doing you the gravest disservice.<br /><br />As for other sins, there are of course many other sins we might debate but this thread is about same-sex relations.Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-62886693132703281592011-11-24T06:11:02.550-08:002011-11-24T06:11:02.550-08:00I think its rather worrying that you feel anger to...I think its rather worrying that you feel anger towards an integral part of yourself and do not try and integrate all the parts of your life!<br /><br />What angers me is that gay people are in the news headlines every day. We are maybe 2% of the population so why do we deserve such press coverage? And its mainly negative press coverage, or about how we have to fight every day for our human rights. What angers me more is that so-called Christians like Peter Saunders fuel the fire of the hatred that we experience. God is on the side of the down-trodden and broken hearted. His people should be on our side too not fanning the flames of hatred. This is why I believe that anti-gay activists should be punished - birched even!<br /><br />Christians disagree about loads of things. Why does Peter Saunders specifically pick out gay people to persecute? Why doesn't he persecute women in leadership or divorcees for example?!Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-81444460946557855232011-11-24T04:42:12.935-08:002011-11-24T04:42:12.935-08:00Was reading all the above comments and my heart sa...Was reading all the above comments and my heart sank!<br /><br />I understand all your anger Origen. I too feel this anger towards the Christian church but I also feel it toward my own homosexuality. <br />But I cannot feel this anger towards God. As Jonno wrote "He loves us so much that though we reject him in every aspect of our lives, he chose to die for us so that we could be brought back into a relationship with him." <br /><br />But I also know Peter Saunders and know that he loves you more than you can know. He does because God does. <br />I do not understand why we have to suffer so much as homosexual children etc. but our lives are not any less worthy or wonderful because of it all. <br /><br />Yes, being a homosexual and a Christian is a life of profound conflict. But a lot of suffering does not come from Christianity's rejection of homosexual relationships - it is deeper.<br /><br />But there is a love far deeper than homosexual love. This is the sacrificial love of our relationship with God. Yes, it is a nightmare sometimes to live. It was a nighmare for Jesus to live.<br /><br />Origen, there is hope. Hope in the midst of all the things we do no understand. But loving God more than anybody or anything else (like my own homosexuality) is the only way I have found to survive (over many decades).<br /><br />CalumCalum MacKellarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-81605846398773094812011-11-21T18:19:58.697-08:002011-11-21T18:19:58.697-08:00I've just realised, at this late hour, that I&...I've just realised, at this late hour, that I've only responded to half of your answer :(<br /><br />"If we want to find out what God is like, it’s to Jesus we need to look."<br /><br />I completely agree with this, and it is Jesus's teaching and example that I have tried to build my life upon. However after many years of struggle I have come to accept my sexuality and believe that your father, if indeed you are related to the blogger in this way, is profoundly wrong. And his views on homosexuality are actually evil and against God! And in writing the stuff that he does he is abusing God's children and deserves to be punished. I realise that this is heavy stuff and I don't say it lightly, but in persecuting gay Christians in this way I believe he is guilty of a major sin.Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-6885878089856800932011-11-21T17:54:57.580-08:002011-11-21T17:54:57.580-08:00Thanks for your reply Jonno! I appreciate you resp...Thanks for your reply Jonno! I appreciate you responding especially as you appear to be related to the blogger ;)<br /><br />However I feel your argument is rather flawed: I agree that "forgiveness is costly" and you have to "absorb the pain" yourself but I wonder why God could not do this? Why did he have to punish his son (himself) in order to forgive? This is completely different to what we have to do. Although we absorb the pain ourselves we don't have to kill someone else to do it!<br /><br />Maybe you should check out alternative views of atonement. Wikipedia contains good articles on atonement and I particularly like the Moral Influence theory of atonement. It is important to realise that the theory of penal substitution has only been around for the last few hundred years and is not what the early church believed. And it is worrying that evangelicals don't know this! At least some evangelicals that is: Steve Chalke who writes in Christianity magazine wrote a book about this a few years ago.<br /><br />Hope this helps(!)Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-77171032853799628902011-11-21T11:48:03.832-08:002011-11-21T11:48:03.832-08:00Origen,
I agree, it would be pretty silly to ask...Origen, <br /><br />I agree, it would be pretty silly to ask ‘some mad church person’ to help if you wanted a medical opinion, a doctor is much better informed. Likewise with matters of science. But when it comes to matters of what’s right and what’s wrong, what the meaning of life is and why there is something rather than nothing, scientists’ and doctors’ skills run out. It’s here where we need to look somewhere else for the answers, and Jesus claimed to have solutions to all of them. <br />He claimed to be “the way, and the truth, and the life”. If we want to find out what God is like, it’s to Jesus we need to look. <br />Who do you think he is?<br /><br />Why couldn’t God ‘just forgive’? Because nobody can ‘just forgive’. When somebody wrongs you, you’ve got two options; you can either seek revenge, or you can forgive them. If you seek revenge, you turn the anger back on them. You make them feel the pain that you felt when you were wronged, and in fact you still feel angry at them! What usually happens then is that the anger and pain spirals upwards from both parties, leaving nothing resolved and everyone hurt. Your other option is to forgive. In doing this you say “I’m going to treat you as if you didn’t do that to me.” You absorb the pain and the loss yourself, so that you and the person who wronged you can be reconciled. Forgiveness is costly – it hurts to forgive. <br />When Jesus died on the cross, that was the price that had to be paid for God to forgive us. God is just; he punishes sin. But he’s merciful to us, because he chose to punish his own son instead of us, if we put our trust in him. He loves us so much that though we reject him in every aspect of our lives, he chose to die for us so that we could be brought back into a relationship with him.<br /><br />I hope this helps,<br /><br />JonnoJonathan Paul Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17411416299211965851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-89223078515749078422011-11-20T17:25:16.280-08:002011-11-20T17:25:16.280-08:00>> "Ask and it shall be done unto thee&...>> "Ask and it shall be done unto thee". <br /><br />Which Bible are you reading Sally?! The quote is "Ask and it shall be given unto you".<br /><br />>> For sure Christians in marriages where sex is impossible/difficult walk the same road but at least they can hope their situation is temporary. <br /><br />Who said it is temporary for married christians where sex is difficult or impossible, Joe? Many married couples are forced to live celibate lives for various reasons - this is often permanent. Too much is made of sex and sexual gratification in our society. The majority of folk feel obliged to fib about their sex lives as it is so boring, even non-existent.<br /><br />I suspect a lot of homosexual couples also end up celibate eventually.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-29117608057422458672011-11-20T14:35:56.598-08:002011-11-20T14:35:56.598-08:00Well I certainly don't think that a loving rel...Well I certainly don't think that a loving relationship between two people can be called 'sin'!<br /><br />What I would call 'sin' is killing people, and if God said to kill people then that is a pretty bad sin whether or not s/he has changed her/his mind.<br /><br />I've met some pretty mad christians in my time and most of them believe that the earth was created between 6000 and 12,000 years ago. Barmy! I looked at creation.com but its too advanced for a lay person like me. I think that's why we have people who are experts in their field: if I wanted a medical opinion I would ask a good doctor - I wouldn't ask some mad church person. So in the same way I trust scientists the majority of which believe in evolution. Most of the ones who don't are crackpot religionists who are trying to shoehorn science into their belief that God wrote the Bible and is 100% correct.<br /><br />I don't accept God's suicide on the cross either. Why couldn't he just forgive us like we forgive others??Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-5769943661443016322011-11-18T12:52:33.527-08:002011-11-18T12:52:33.527-08:00Origen, these verses from the Old Testament show ...Origen, these verses from the Old Testament show us how seriously God views these sins, but in accordance with God's message to us in the Bible, the penalty stated here is not to be applied by us today as it was in Israel at that time. This is not a contradiction; there is a consistent flow of God's plan in history which these verses are a part of. <br /><br />David Wilson (above) has written of 'knowing the Lord Jesus lives' and following Him in His light - if you were to experience this, your thoughts and attitudes would be radically changed but it would only be for the better. You would not be required to put anyone to death, but you would recognise God's right to be the supreme judge over everyone's life, at the same time that He is love.<br /><br />You lay down a challange in relation to science and evolution: I know that Christians do not all tackle this in the same way, but I do believe there are suitable answers - and would recommend you browse creation.com to see what I believe is the right approach.Mark Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-919222707029062192011-11-18T12:43:16.816-08:002011-11-18T12:43:16.816-08:00Under Old Testament Law (which ceased to apply wit...Under Old Testament Law (which ceased to apply with Jesus' death and resurrection) most sex outside marriage was punishable by death - this included adultery, incest, bestiality and homosexual sex.<br /><br />Murder, witchcraft and rape were also capital crimes as was rebellious delinquency. <br /><br />These punishments acted as powerful deterrents but their main purpose was to show us how serious sin is in God's eyes.<br /><br />The New Testament tells us that everyone has sinned and falls short of God's glory and that all sinners deserve not only death but judgement (Romans 3:23, 6:23) So we are all equally guilty whether we are guilty of OT capital crimes or not.<br /><br />However Jesus Christ has died the death we all deserve in our place and thereby offers us not only forgiveness but also eternal life. <br /><br />The offer has been made. But accepting it involves accepting God's view of the seriousness of sin rather than our own.<br /><br />What is your own view of sin?Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-30987054204314600172011-11-18T04:22:27.637-08:002011-11-18T04:22:27.637-08:00"When a man has sexual intercourse with anoth..."When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die." Leviticus 20:13<br /><br />"If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 21:18-21<br /><br />People used to believe in Adam & Eve, now science has shown us evolution.Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-2670963856937939622011-11-18T00:37:17.762-08:002011-11-18T00:37:17.762-08:00How much of the Bible have you read and what parti...How much of the Bible have you read and what particular verses are you referring to? And what fresh scientific understanding do we have now that has changed everything?Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-28808136821903268612011-11-17T16:56:17.898-08:002011-11-17T16:56:17.898-08:00What is the scientific proof that the Bible is the...What is the scientific proof that the Bible is the word of God? I'd be very interested to know that! Does God still want gays and naughty children killed or has he changed his mind?Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-34735189158514127842011-11-16T20:55:38.100-08:002011-11-16T20:55:38.100-08:00Origen, As a doctor who has written regularly abou...Origen, As a doctor who has written regularly about the science of these issues may I ask what fresh scientific understanding we have now that has changed everything and caused us to move on? I'd be very interested to know.Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-42450174631906777282011-11-16T19:48:41.593-08:002011-11-16T19:48:41.593-08:00As Guglielmo rightly says, "the world has mov...As Guglielmo rightly says, "the world has moved on since then, thank God." The people who wrote the scriptures 2000+ years ago didn't have any scientific understanding of these issues. The weak point for modern fundamentalists is their reliance on the Bible as facts and the literal word of God. What sort of God proscribes death for naughty children and gays?! Only the fictional one proclaimed by religious fundamentalists.Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-74393984749188633482011-11-15T05:08:51.758-08:002011-11-15T05:08:51.758-08:00Good article once again Pete. I would add that thi...Good article once again Pete. I would add that this presents quite a challenge to us as Christians. I agree that as fallen humans we do not have complete control over who we find ourselves sexually attracted to, it is only sinful if we act on these impulses and engage in any sexual activity prohibited by scripture. Therefore the doors of our churches should be wide open to those that experience same-sex attraction. We must also be aware that we are asking them to walk a very hard road with no legitimate outlet for their desires. For sure single Christans or Christians in marriages where sex is impossible/difficult walk the same road but at least they can hope their situation is temporary. The same cannot be said for a lot of gay people and therefore we must demonstrate extra-ordinary love and grace for those who that applies to.Joenoreply@blogger.com