tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post5030481542101630335..comments2023-11-09T02:43:59.293-08:00Comments on Christian Medical Comment: Vicky Beeching’s challenge to evangelicals about same-sex marriagePeter Saundershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-34710593378134133812014-11-15T07:09:56.345-08:002014-11-15T07:09:56.345-08:00I had a mental breakdown after following the teach...I had a mental breakdown after following the teaching that Peter Saunders is advocating :( Time and time again I come across this blog and am appalled by the wickedness that he promotes. This stuff damages us irreparably and yet he's still promoting it. Know them by their fruit and all that I guess.<br /><br />A gay relationship is a lifeline to people who have suffered at the hands of evangelicals, and I'm glad that Vicky now has a girlfriend. I wish her much blessing for her future and pray that she recovers from the hurt that has been poured onto her by unrepentant evangelicals.Origen Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-438697827369335452014-10-14T01:14:59.680-07:002014-10-14T01:14:59.680-07:00Oh sorry if I seem intolerant but that's calle...Oh sorry if I seem intolerant but that's called karma, now you know what discrimination feels like, oh BTW your Scripture also teaches love and compassion, try practising someAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01641486519808332760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-56956685132621188682014-09-29T00:54:01.992-07:002014-09-29T00:54:01.992-07:00Thankyou Peter for that, a good source of instruct...Thankyou Peter for that, a good source of instruction which may could do with reading.<br />I have listened to a sermon preached by Geoff Thomas, on this kind of subject, and he mentioned that a student asked him "doesn't she have the right to express her love for her partner" (girlfriend).<br />Hi response was interesting he (as far as I can remember) said that her only right was to "Worship God", and from that a life of truthfulness will flow - which would show her the error of her ways.<br /><br />We need to empower churches to guide people in worshiping God with all their Heart, Soul, Mind & Strength, I believe the Holy Spirit will lead them in paths of righteousness.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11191239004640168427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-16648610267432123952014-09-28T12:36:40.618-07:002014-09-28T12:36:40.618-07:00I agree! Thanks Peter for your clarity, wisdom, gr...I agree! Thanks Peter for your clarity, wisdom, grace and willingness to say what seems so unpalatable to many of us with our current cultural blinkers on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-5256894437726391912014-09-27T04:23:49.818-07:002014-09-27T04:23:49.818-07:00I think that Anonymous is unfairly viewing it as u...I think that Anonymous is unfairly viewing it as unlikely that we can find the author's intention. On the contrary: very often the author's intention will be broadly clear. There is a kind of fundamentalism which says that every single Bible passage (why not passages in other books too, then?) must be opaque and hard to understand. But find me a single scholar who would agree. Scholars would all agree that the difficulty of passages is on a sliding scale from very easy to very difficult. Whereas Anonymous is kind of assuming that they are all very difficult, which is quite an assumption when you think about it. The Biblical writers' wholesale strong opposition to same-gender sexual behaviour is not in doubt, and that is after all the main point (though smaller exegetical points may and must be debated). I speak as a Biblical PhD. Alternatively, one can examine the conclusions of the commentators (those who have spent thousands of hours with the texts and with the backgrounds to the texts), and see whether they are broadly in consensus. Christopher ShellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-14865401549408567702014-09-25T04:54:46.471-07:002014-09-25T04:54:46.471-07:00A fine balanced and truthful post. Thank youA fine balanced and truthful post. Thank youAntiocheanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02362759578712922783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-85507663558347173782014-09-24T07:22:03.998-07:002014-09-24T07:22:03.998-07:00I think we are yet to hear Vicky's interpretat...I think we are yet to hear Vicky's interpretation and how she uses the texts to support her position. That is what people are really waiting for. Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-76560318959774931622014-09-24T06:47:21.904-07:002014-09-24T06:47:21.904-07:00"There may be different 'well-documented ..."There may be different 'well-documented understandings' of a particular scripture but its meaning is found in the author's intention rather than the reader's interpretation." This is exactly my point. You're effectively saying that you have found the 'author's intention' and those who disagree with your interpretation haven't and that's the problem with the argument, Vicky is saying that she feels she has found an alternative, and yes different, intention. To write off the counter argument with 'well that's not what God says in scripture', is an unfair and lazy criticism. Surely you can concede in the possibility that she MAY be correct in her interpretation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-17471542127398048572014-09-24T02:21:55.001-07:002014-09-24T02:21:55.001-07:00Although I have a different reading of the warning...Although I have a different reading of the warning texts in Hebrews and 1 Corinthians, seeing them as warning of loss of inheritance rather than loss of final salvation, I do agree with the overall content of the post, namely that the Biblical context of sexual activity is clear, and that attempts to redefine sexual conduct is a major problem in the church. Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-63300613969160844252014-09-24T01:27:08.200-07:002014-09-24T01:27:08.200-07:00Peter I thank God for your faithfulness in teachin...Peter I thank God for your faithfulness in teaching and defending His word. I always find your blogs and responses to be gracious and uncompromising on truth, as I believe Christ would be and is. I have found your teaching on this particular matter to be extremely helpful and biblically faithful and pray that you will continue to be given grace, boldness and insight (and no doubt time!) in the defence and proclamation of God's glory and truth. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15934183247719113775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-63452596563852707672014-09-23T15:26:58.816-07:002014-09-23T15:26:58.816-07:00It is not narrow to believe that a text cannot be ...It is not narrow to believe that a text cannot be saying two mutually contradictory things at the same time. There may be different 'well-documented understandings' of a particular scripture but its meaning is found in the author's intention rather than the reader's interpretation.<br /><br />No one is seriously doubting the sincerity and integrity of Vicky's testimony and experience - it is how she gets from this to an endorsement of same sex marriage that is unexplained and unclear. She seems to be interpreting the Bible through her experience rather than interpreting her experience in the light of the Bible.Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-8893798063829143892014-09-23T10:58:00.280-07:002014-09-23T10:58:00.280-07:00I think this is a very narrow view on scripture wh...I think this is a very narrow view on scripture when there are many other, well-documented, understandings of the verses that you quote. Vicky is acting out of integrity and has explained her reasoning very well, so I don't think you really mean what you say when you say that 'young people will be confused', I think you mean that some young people will agree with Vicky's argument and disagree with yours - this isn't confusion, it's just how millions of people have moved forward in their deeper understanding of God as he's continued to reveal himself over the years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-75873991179150298462014-09-23T03:06:34.481-07:002014-09-23T03:06:34.481-07:00The real question here is what one chooses to do i...The real question here is what one chooses to do in the face of feelings of same-sex attraction. I do not think that we can necessarily conclude that Vicky's not adopting a gay lifestyle caused her auto-immune disease. As she explains in her testimony the angst she suffered was over keeping her feelings secret. <br /><br />The way of resolving this was to be honest about her feelings to friends and family which she has now done. But being honest about one's feelings is a very different matter from engaging in homosexual behaviour. Do read my earlier post on ‘Should ‘gay’ Christians be true to their feelings?’ which is linked above.Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-56451396052186460882014-09-23T02:59:20.319-07:002014-09-23T02:59:20.319-07:00In response to the above...I would have to disagre...In response to the above...I would have to disagree that these are "unloving words". They may be difficult to accept if you hold a different view but are not unloving. They are an accurate summary of Biblical teaching, God loves you no matter what your view or actions but He does set out truth for us to live by. We can't walk in fellowship with God and know his blessing if we disregard his instructionsRossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-19437246666966285282014-09-23T02:07:19.343-07:002014-09-23T02:07:19.343-07:00Much damage has been done by this teaching to thos...Much damage has been done by this teaching to those who are homosexual. By their fruits we shall know them Vicki had an auto-immune illness & many have had mental health problems. The fruit of such teaching is destructive & does not provide good fruit to others. That is the problem of your unloving words however biblical.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05583610204961896008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-42781151303391737282014-09-22T22:50:08.157-07:002014-09-22T22:50:08.157-07:00What i don't understand is why God don't c...What i don't understand is why God don't changed her life, obviously she suffer with this, is like a psychological sickness, I don't agree with her about teology, but read her interview broke my heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-74908188262689824212014-09-22T13:07:40.679-07:002014-09-22T13:07:40.679-07:00YesYesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-4010341139432442652014-09-22T10:11:14.079-07:002014-09-22T10:11:14.079-07:00Thanks Andrew. I try to deal with the question of ...Thanks Andrew. I try to deal with the question of the difference between homosexual erotic attraction - which I see in its initial stages as temptation rather than sin - and homosexual erotic acts in my earlier post ‘Should ‘gay’ Christians be true to their feelings?’ which is linked above. <br /><br />I agree that Christians have misused the Bible with respect to slavery, apartheid and with some aspects of women's ministry but would not attempt to do justice to those issues here. This post is about homosexuality and I take an orthodox evangelical position and draw out its practical implications. The biblical case as to why same sex erotic acts are morally wrong is unpacked in more detail elsewhere. <br /><br />I fully agree that we should take the other sins listed alongside sexual immorality in scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 5:10,11 and 6:9,10 and Revelation 21:8 and 22:15 much more seriously in our churches.Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-55304519655062745542014-09-22T09:56:44.880-07:002014-09-22T09:56:44.880-07:00My current blog settings allow anyone to post incl...My current blog settings allow anyone to post including anonymous users. I don't moderate comments. Occasionally I delete comments if they contain obscenities or are from trolls/spammers but not simply for disagreement. This post has so far had 945 views but only four comments. Peter Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17222354018504253042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-8921947645809668322014-09-22T09:13:53.633-07:002014-09-22T09:13:53.633-07:00I think that anyone can post. My concern with the...I think that anyone can post. My concern with the responses to Vicky Beeching is not that I disagree with them, but that I agree, but wish to be sure that I/we are not interpreting scripture to fit our own agendas - for many years christians used the Bible to support slavery, apartheid, lack of women's ministry, and more. Secondly, many of these passages also refer to other sins in the same breath (greed, slander, swindling - or carrying out unfair economic transactions in modern parlance) which most writers seem to brush over without any discussion. Nevertheless, I can not believe that same-sex attraction fulfils God's plan for us (whether a sin or not, it comes out of sin and the fall), and Jesus clearly said "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me." which applies to each of us in our own particular way, and for some folk particularly in terms of their sexuality and relationships.Andrewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-61799945843495679222014-09-22T04:38:56.680-07:002014-09-22T04:38:56.680-07:00Can anyone post that doesn't agree with you ou...Can anyone post that doesn't agree with you out at they just deleted?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-36478093989476127812014-09-22T04:30:10.417-07:002014-09-22T04:30:10.417-07:00Thank you Dr Peter - this is probably the most cle...Thank you Dr Peter - this is probably the most clear and concise summary of the orthodox position I have read!<br />Philipnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2654455663519806899.post-44896119716322196362014-09-22T04:11:23.289-07:002014-09-22T04:11:23.289-07:00Thankyou Peter. It's just so tragic to read of...Thankyou Peter. It's just so tragic to read of someone going astray like this. I feel very sad for Vicky Beeching and others like her.Lyndseynoreply@blogger.com