But what happens if, instead of making statements, we ask serious questions?
Yesterday morning, after 24 hours of on and off discussion answering questions posed by atheists about origins, history and language (you can see the discussion storified here) I asked two serious questions as follows to see how they themselves might respond:
1.How do you explain the fine tuning of the universe? http://bit.ly/aw3vXq
2.How do you explain the fact of 116 distinct language families? http://bit.ly/vnQaU
I received just about 60 replies in the next three hours from some of the atheists who follow me on twitter and have categorised them into five main categories.
Here are over 50 of them (I have omitted many retweets and some conversation between themselves to which I was copied in):
Dismissive disdain and patronising putdowns (19)
21h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders don't be stupid, and go look it up. @Dragonblaze@theslicer
8h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders a tenner says your silly questions are a/ already answered, b/ non-questions, c/ properly unknown. @dragonblaze@theslicer
8h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders origins of languages a matter of debate, but Babel is a fairy story. Not in the frame. At all. @dragonblaze@theslicer
9h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer And neither do you. But instead of research, you plug the gap with God. Typical ...
10h Harpindon Groomsmill @And_TheRest
RT @shanemuk @KeesEngels Oh no! Looks like genetic evidence comprehensively DISPROVES @drpetersaunders's naive view...http://bit.ly/JB6V9e
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk It's selective blindness. They believe all the other stories are made-up, except their fave ones. @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @Dragonblaze @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer Carlin made a nice joke about that ;)http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm - look for 'divine plan'
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@Dragonblaze I think @drpetersaunders doesn't give humans enough credit for inventing stories. His is a #HarryPotter god.@TheSlicer
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk It's selective blindness. They believe all the other stories are made-up, except their fave ones. @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @Dragonblaze @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer Carlin made a nice joke about that ;)http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm - look for 'divine plan'
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@Dragonblaze I think @drpetersaunders doesn't give humans enough credit for inventing stories. His is a #HarryPotter god.@TheSlicer
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk Though when asked to demonstrate, they always refuse. And I'd so like Ayers' Rock in the park nearby.@drpetersaunders @TheSlicer
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@KeesEngels Oh no! Looks like genetic evidence comprehensively DISPROVES @drpetersaunders's naive view of #Bible!@Dragonblaze @TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @TheSlicer There were never less than 22.000 individuals, even at its worst bottleneck event
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk No, he can't - and he's using the water in pothole fallacy even in the question. @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@KeesEngels: @drpetersaunders did say only 8 ppl were alive 3200 years BC. *He* can't explain genetic diversity. @Dragonblaze@TheSlicer
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@Dragonblaze: @drpetersaunders can't explain fine tuning:http://answersingenes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/on-historicity-of-goldilocks-and-three.html - he's just an apologetics regurgitant.@TheSlicer
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@drpetersaunders Which theory would you prefer - excluding Babel fairy tales, of course. @KeesEngels @shanemuk @TheSlicer
11h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders there is NO evidence rooting human lingo to the Genesis myth. You are being silly. @dragonblaze @keesengels@theslicer
Mockery and mutual self-congratulation backslapping (9)
Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@anarchic_teapot @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer "We will resume rotation shortly. Thank you for your patience."
Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@anarchic_teapot Lol - funny indeed. @shanemuk@drpetersaunders @TheSlicer
8h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@0100110010110 @drpetersaunders @dragonblaze @theslicer it's because he thinks if atheists can't answer, Jeeebus wins by default.#nutjob
8h Invincible Truth @0100110010110
@shanemuk @drpetersaunders @dragonblaze @theslicer He thinks he's got the smoking gun here eh? lol
8h anarchic_teapot @anarchic_teapot
@Dragonblaze @shanemuk @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer Sudden vision of huge "SITE UNDER MAINTENANCE" sign in sky instead of sun...
8h anarchic_teapot @anarchic_teapot
@shanemuk That one is hilarious. @Dragonblaze @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
8h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@0100110010110 @drpetersaunders @dragonblaze @theslicer it's because he thinks if atheists can't answer, Jeeebus wins by default.#nutjob
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @NewHumanist @drpetersaunders I laughed :)
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer *plague
Incredulity that these are even serious questions (3)
9h Invincible Truth @0100110010110
@drpetersaunders @shanemuk @dragonblaze @theslicer Why do pose this question to atheists?
8h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders why does "116 language families" even matter? Languages evolve. No surprises there. #duh @dragonblaze@theslicer
9h Aribert Deckers @aribertdeckers
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @KeesEngels @shanemuk@TheSlicer Even whales and birds and monkeys have language. SO WHAT!? It is evolutionary
Irrelevant counter-questions and counter-comments (16)
9h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@drpetersaunders Do you know *exactly* what causes autism?
9h Aribert Deckers @aribertdeckers
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer BWAH!!! The question religiots can't answer: If god created the world, who created god?
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@KeesEngels Jesus promised believers can literally move mountains, but I've yet to see that happen. @shanemuk @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
9h Aribert Deckers @aribertdeckers
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @KeesEngels @shanemuk@TheSlicer Didn't dawn on you that the eye was invented several times INDEPENDENTLY?
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk Frankly I have major difficulty in taking anyone who admits belief in witchcraft and demons seriously @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@Dragonblaze @shanemuk @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer "God answers prayers" "Prove it, pray for anything" "It doesn't work like that"
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@KeesEngels yes - these are standard tropes for Near Eastern gods like Baal, YHWH, Marduk etc. @Dragonblaze @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@shanemuk Yep, like stopping the sun in the sky (or the earth from spinning) w/o anyone noticing the disaster. @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @Dragonblaze @drpetersaunders @TheSlicer Also, he doesn't exactly come across as a subtle individual#deathofallfirstborns
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@Dragonblaze furthermore, if @drpetersaunders & @TheSlicer don't like YHWH's "finely tuned" universe, they think they can ask for changes!
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
.@Dragonblaze YHWH is constantly tinkering, fixing *non*-fine-tuned mistakes in his universe. He's like Zeus. @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@shanemuk @drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @TheSlicer Oh no! Now what will he use to explain what he doesn't understand?
10h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@Dragonblaze worse than that, the fake god of the bible doesn't match a god who sets up finely balanced params. @drpetersaunders@TheSlicer
10h Christian Values 4UK @CV4UK
"@drpetersaunders: @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer"Peter explain how a lottery winner has the same numbers as are drawn out?
10h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer Funny how YOU accuse US of constantly asking questions. You avoid answering like the pest
11h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders explain the fine tuning of your fake god.@dragonblaze @theslicer
Possibly serious replies (4)
9h Kees Engels @KeesEngels
@drpetersaunders @Dragonblaze @shanemuk @TheSlicer Ah, a challenge. I will answer them all, but will you accept my replies?
9h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@drpetersaunders I don't precisely care if you're on the Moon. We can't answer because nobody knows for certain. @shanemuk@TheSlicer
10h Dragonblaze @Dragonblaze
@drpetersaunders ṣani têmi, ultu Twitter alak! Right after you translate that. I'm not a physicist. @shanemuk @TheSlicer
11h Shane McKee @shanemuk
@drpetersaunders "116 families" - you are misinterpreting this.@dragonblaze @keesengels @theslicer
How unfair. I answered both questions in the comments.
ReplyDeleteAnd your point is... no-one in a short random selection on a platform designed for short responses takes you seriously enough?
ReplyDeleteEspecially when you actually dismiss serious answers as 'incredulous' (like all the ones you label "Incredulity that these are even serious questions (3)") or get huffy that they 'dare' ask you questions back.
Really, the only point I can pick up is that you like whining, and don't know how to have even a middle-school level debate.
Using Twitter to ask complex questions just makes you look like an idiot who doesn't know what its for.
ReplyDeleteAll your answers can be found
at this link
"Saunders thinks “there have not been any decent responses to [these twenty questions] in the past 40yrs,” but evidently he isn’t bothering to read any of the best answers available or even to find out what they are"
Talmyr is exactly right: when cogent, considered answers are dismissed out of hand, you've already skewed the curve.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's the trouble with studies, isn't it? It's wonderfully easy to produce "data" but maddeningly difficult to keep it objective.
Additionally, your first question is loaded. "Fine-tuning" implies a fine-tuner. #ObjectiveFail
We "atheists" and other doubters don't pretend to know answers to questions we don't know. "I don't know" is the beginning of knowledge. It's not a dead end. However, claiming a god did it, when you can't prove this, IS a dead end. It's a dead end that mankind has been banging its head against for centuries. So yes. You will receive dismissive disdain, patronizing put downs, mockery, and incredulity that we are still having this discussion at all.
ReplyDeleteGenetics proves Eve was not made from Adam. Radiometric dating of matter proves nothing made this planet inside of six days. Astrophysics proves this universe is far grander and older than Abrahamics ever predicted, causing apologetix to re-evaluate worn interpretations of ancient translations.
Because she never existed, Eve did not incite Original Sin causing a god to impregnate a woman magically in order to give birth to himself so that he could live as a human and then have himself sacrificed to himself to atone for sins that never could have happened because Eve never happened. Genetics proves females existed before males, and long before homo sapiens EVOLVED. Mere existence does not prove Creation. There was no Intelligent Design, at least not as depicted in ancient Abrahamic texts.
And EVEN IF Eve committed Original Sin, which she could not have, it is plainly evident that human blood sacrifice (be it a goat or Jesus Christ) does not absolve anyone from personal responsibility of their own actions. You are responsible for your own sins, no matter how many gods you invite into your heart. And EVEN IF Jesus could have sacrificed himself to atone for your actions, which he can't, how dare you use the cold blooded murder of a fellow human being to pay the price for any wrongs you have done! That's beyond offensive. That's sickening. No man should have to die so that another can live free of his own guilt.
AFTER you prove a god exists scientifically, THEN perhaps we can revisit this atrocious flight of fancy. NOT before! It is the 21st century. Your god has had more than enough time to return. Indeed, it never left, cuz it never existed outside the minds of those who believe in it.
If you tire of people laughing at your beliefs, stop having such stupid beliefs.